What women's power looks like - an interview.

Tina Shattuck: founder, Women Hold the Key - an organization cultivating connection, community, and recognition for women and girls.

Tina’s stats. Age: 51; Race: Asian/Caucasian; Pronouns: She/her

Eva: Welcome to the Dae Nova Interviews: where we explore the fundamentals of women’s personal power. Today I'm speaking with Tina Shattuck of Women Hold the Key. Hi Tina.

Tina: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Eva: So Tina, can you flesh out a bit what Women Hold the Key, what it's about and how it captures your particular brilliance and your dream?

Tina: Well, Women Hold the Key is actually a new endeavor. It's about a year and a half old. I’d been thinking about this idea for quite a few years - of women in community - and actually an amulet that would connect them. So that we as women in the world wouldn't have to feel like we [first had to] know somebody, but could connect to them just by, you know, a visual amulet. Sort of like what lots of organizations and religions already do all over the world, right, in very different iterations: religious, community service organizations, and all different kinds of things.

And I had thought about it for quite a while and did some research and couldn't find one that was really just for women, that just connected women together.

And I turned fifty on a pretty auspicious day a couple years ago. It was the confirmation hearings of a certain Supreme Court justice, and I woke up in the morning and looked at the news and was really hopeful. But by the afternoon I realized it didn't really matter what women said…

And I think that was sort of like the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. And I was just like, you know what, it's time for me to gather my tribe, my people, to reach out and let them know that they're important to me. To support them in their own personal lives, but also as a way to galvanize women to really step into their own personal power and start making decisions that will eventually help us all out as a collective society.

So it [all] really started with a very simple idea of gathering my community and my tribe, and the people that I knew, and that's kind of how it is.  

I designed a key because I think keys are symbolic, and this particular key that I designed is modeled after keys that were found in the graves of Viking women. So if you go to a heritage [site] like the Nordic Heritage Museum, you can see all of these really interesting sorts of primal looking old keys, and they were thought to symbolize that women were the power centers of their communities because all of the men were gone. They were off at war, you know, doing probably terrible things.

And women were the power centers of their communities. They together held the keys of power, and I really love that symbolism, and I do really believe that women are the key to sort of what we do next. And I think we see that, we see that in young women, we see that in Greta Thunberg, we see that in lots of different places. But we really have to, as a collective of women, really step into our own personal power so that we can make the changes that we know need to be made.

This is a really critically interesting time to think about everything falling away and nothing working in the way that that it will, or has been working. We're gonna have to create a new normal and maybe there's some opportunity there.

Eva: The thing that’s interesting to me about what you said, you had been nurturing the idea already, but it was in the context of the Supreme Court confirmation that you got the strength to move forward. It also reminds me of what’s happening now. Things are falling apart, and [it’s often] in these moments of duress that something potentially transformative can emerge.

Tina: Yes.

Eva: It feels like there’s a parallel there, because [right now with Covid] we’re all understandably disturbed.

Tina: You know, … I knew before our current president was elected that he was going to be. That election for a lot of people was polarizing, galvanizing, and really shocking, but I wasn't shocked. I knew that it was gonna happen.

But it was this one particular incident [the Supreme court nomination] that did it for me. At that point you know Harvey Weinstein was also sort of like not really paying a price for all the stuff that he had done.

But it was this one particular incident that really just broke it all free from me … I was just so obsessed. I was pissed, I was angry.

Eva:  I like the words you used, “broke it free.” It’s almost like you were liberated into [Women Hold the Key.]

Tell me more about that experience. I like that language. I think it’s something that’s important.

Tina: Well I mean Eva, you like me are a parent, right, and you spend you know so much of what you do parenting, just taking care of your family.

Eva: Uh huh.

Tina: And I think that I was allowing myself to be non-active about all the stuff that I felt in my heart was so horrible. I was upset about all of this stuff and at the same time I said, “well I'm deep in raising three kids, and I, you know, I'm just trying to live my life. So I can't take all of that and actually move it forward right now because it doesn't feel like it's doable for me.

But I also knew at some point that if I didn't do something, that I [wasn’t] any better than anybody else who ever just complains about what the system is, or the status quo or what's happening. If I didn’t actually work in whatever way felt important to me then I really should just keep my mouth shut.

I don't really have a right to complain if I'm not gonna actually do anything. And I think that particular incident made me say “well I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but I'm doing something.”

So it broke it free in terms of me actually becoming active about what I thought, as opposed to just sitting back and being like, “man, the world is screwed up”, and “jeez Louise, how are we gonna, you know, fix it. But oh, wait a second, I've got dinner to make and I have laundry to do, and you know, I have a family to take care.”

So you know, I had to sort of get beyond that to a degree [to] just feel like no matter what I did, even something tiny, would be better than just talking about it. So that's what I think it meant for me.

Eva: And you know you talked about not knowing whether it was “right.” And this is a big thing that holds us back, holds women back, not having that certainty. That certainty that a new direction is “right,” even though it’s a new direction, so what are we even going to base that “rightness” on?

So it's always stepping into creative, ambivalent space, and then having to move with uncertainty. I think it’s a huge piece of owning one’s personal authority, having that confidence, and having that trust in something to take that step, right?

And so there was a tension there, and it sounds to me like it was a shock, a shock to the system [that moved you forward]. “I can’t take it anymore, I’m going to do something even though I don’t know have certitude about what I’m doing. I’m going to step out and see.”

And how did that work out for you?

Tina: Well it's been a really great year and a half. I met in December of 2019 with a group of 38 women who were sort of the core of the people that I felt were my community. And I had the original key designed, and an idea, and I gathered them all together and I said, “you know, this is first and foremost about me saying to you that I see you and that you're important and that you have value. But this is also about creating community and I don't know what it's gonna look like. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but this is the starting point.”

And so I did that, and there have been lots of stops and starts along the way. Like, “oh is this the right thing to do, is that the right thing to do? How do you build global community and connection?” And I always knew that it wasn't going to be, this is not the thing that makes me money. I don't get rich on this. But maybe someday I'll be able to, no, I will someday be able to support myself as a business owner, and as a women business owner doing this.

Eva: There's something very interesting [here]. This thing about stop and start, is it right - [is it not right]? This issue keeps surfacing, so maybe we can drill down a bit more into it and learn more about it, because this thing that you’re going through in stepping into unknown territory is something most every woman goes through when they’re confronted with doing something that’s never been done before.

Do I go left, do I go right, what’s the right way to go? And when you’re in those choice moments, what do you personally rely on to make a decision? What happens there? I mean I think that would be very interesting for [women] to hear about. Not that you have the definitive answer, but you’re out there doing it.

Tina: I think I just listen to myself. I listen to that little voice that says “no, this is what you need to do next.” It may not always be right. In fact it's often wrong… [Another thing] I rely on a lot is this really close group of people who [are part of my] partner nonprofit board. I really rely on them to kind of go through “this is what I think I should do, or we should do, or should happen,” and I listen to them a lot. But a lot of it is really stuff that's been in here [points to self], or that I've seen or that I've done for many, many, many years… I mean I've worked with women for 15 years. So it's really just sort of pulling [together] all of these pieces of experience that I feel really fits with what the whole should look like in terms of what kind of programming to put on, and what this is supposed to be.

But you know, I think maybe the biggest thing is that I'm just trying to be right here right now, and whatever feels right here right now like it makes sense and is important, then I move towards [that]. Unless someone on my board says like “oh that's a, that's maybe not the greatest use of your time and your skills; this maybe doesn't align with what we should be doing. But for the most part I just try.

Eva: Can I use this word, and you tell me if it resonates?

Sounds to me like you check in to see if something’s in fact congruent with what matters to you, with what you feel is reflective of your deeply held truth.

Tina: Yes

Eva: Would you say that that fits with what you do when you check in to see if something’s right?

Tina: I have sort of these themes that I always try to make sure I'm touching on, and a theme in all the stuff that I do is service, how can I be of service. How can we be of service. And I kind of go through these little checklists and sometimes I get bogged down just trying to be of service to anybody. …I think that’s just part of my personality type, and sometimes my Board has to say “well, [is this] in service to what our mission is?” …

When I just see needs and I'm like, we can do that, oh yeah, we can do that, we can help because that's what we do, because it's community-based and doesn't have anything to do with really whether you're a man or woman. It's community-based support, which is what people need right now. We all need community really badly. Does that answer your question?

Eva: Yes, that answers my question and it also raises another because it seems to me, and this is true for everyone, that we all have many vectors: of “corporate mission,” of what we're about. Right? And it’s seeing where they come together and not forgetting all the pieces. And I think with women, one of the things that’s very critical is balance, sustain, and within that, “where's our pleasure, where’s our ease, where’s our joy, where’s our sustenance, where are we being filled.” These are all pieces of the matrix of who we are, what we need and our “mission,” and one we often forget.

When we’re looking at the matrix of what’s important, and what’s actually congruent with who we are and what’s “right” – the right next step, the right next thing. What’s the matrix, and are we considering ourselves in it?

Tina: Right. Right.

Eva: I think about that. What’s right about that, Tina, for you, in ways that have worked, and the ways that are hard for you to bring that piece in?

Tina: Well I think sometimes for me it's kind of hard to put my finger on all those matrices, you know, because there are such big differences. I think that I'm not sure how you can find a baseline all the time in what you do, as to how you’re fulfilled, where you [find] ease, how it works, you know, where’s there’s joy for you.

I think that those are sometimes probably personally challenging for me because a lot of times I forget I'm even a component of what those answers should be. Because it's all about service and other people. That’s part of being a parent I think, and part of…

Eva: If I can interrupt. I think it’s also a big part of being women in this culture.

Tina: Yes, I think you're absolutely right.

Eva: And I think this turning toward ourselves in a loving, energized, thoughtful way is not something we’re brought up doing. [I call this interview we’re doing] the Dae Nova interviews, Dae Nova. The Dae Nova woman is a self-referencing woman, who leads from this sense that “I am at the center, and what’s congruent with me, with my joy, with my ease, with my confidence, my purpose and my passion is how I find my way forward,” right. And I think this piece about finding myself at the center, and then serving from that place is a radically different concept than service with the other sort of at the center.

Tina: Right. And I think there’s a dramatic and radical paradigm shift that needs to take place.

So do you feel like women who are part of that, who sort of fit in that Dae Nova position - that find themselves at the center and lead from that place. Like how many women do you find, do you find a lot of women who are actually there? I mean I'm 50 and I feel like I'm just starting to get, like dip into it.

Eva: I’m [actually] very curious about these interviews because in interviewing powerful women who make things happen, I find that those who sit on the seat of their own sovereignty, I find that it’s unusual.

Tina: Well, it has to be unusual because that’s not how we’re raised, and that’s not what people think about our place in society. And how can you sit there when you’ve never been raised in an environment that supported that.

Eva: Or have never been shown the skills [on how to do it.]

I was reading this piece, and it so struck me profoundly. This article, I think it was in the NYTimes, written by this woman, who was clearly a powerful woman. And she was saying she doesn’t want to be a female leader [because] like “what is that even?” [She had] no idea what women’s power really is, like “what are we even talking about,” and I was so sad when I read that. It’s like [women] have no clue.

And all I wanted to say to her was, “you’re a woman. When you’re powerful what are you doing? That’s what women’s power looks like. We are so far from ourselves as the agent of our [own] reality [at this point], that this powerful woman would even write that she has no idea what women’s power looks like was profoundly disturbing to me.

…This is what I find Tina, actually, that powerful women [can be] adrift when it comes to [what it means to] tap into their own personal authority, and live from their sense of power.

Tina: Right.

Eva: So I want to touch on one last topic before we end. I lead off [today’s interview] by saying that your idea, Women Hold the Key - which I think is a brilliant idea. I love the gatherings I’ve come to. I find you to be a tremendous catalyst, so thank you.

Tina: Thank you.

Eva: Absolutely. I think your work is definitely needed - but what I was asking in the very beginning was, how is Women Hold the Key an expression of your brilliance, and that [question] never really got touched on, and that’s another thing I think women step back from, “what, my brilliance?”

So I want to bring that [question] front and center again, and ask you, how is [Women Hold the Key] an expression of your brilliance? Or that thing that is your unique Shine, your unique signature in a way?

Tina: Why are you asking me such hard questions [laughter].

Eva: Because it’s a Dae Nova interview [more laughter]. As we speak together Tina, we are invoking what women need to hear. You are such an amazing woman, and our conversation together is so, women are dying to hear these authentic conversations… You and I are like, stirring the water.

Tina: Yeah.

Eva: So let’s answer the question ‘cause there you are, Ms. Women Hold the Key. I feel your brilliance, but I want to hear your experience of your brilliance.

Tina: Well, I mean I think that I can’t even relate to the idea that you call it brilliance.

My experience of what I’m trying to do is sort of, at the base part of every person is a need to be seen and heard and be a part. And it might come from my own challenges of being seen and heard and being part - sorry very emotional these days.

Maybe I’m trying to answer those questions for myself, and fill that need of needing to be seen and heard. But I think it's the base of where we all sit, as a human condition…. and that we all deserve that, and women in particular because they get less opportunity to be seen and to be heard and to know that they're important, that they matter. I think I'm just like everybody else.

Eva: Yeah I’m with you on that. I believe women’s contribution is needed, always, but even more so at this time.

Tina: Yeah.

Eva: I want to do everything I can to seed the culture, to give women the tools they need to step into that authority, and then bring that benefit to society.

Tina: Agree, I agree. I mean I think it might be time for the paradigm to shift, and for that I mean we might need to really go to this place where we are like Time's Up.

Eva: Yes M’am.

Tina: We need to be farther that way because then the leveling out will also be like a true level as opposed to just this you know, extreme reaction … Maybe in the middle we can come to something that feels equal and balanced to some degree…

This is a really interesting time, you know, to re-imagine how things look. I don't actually know what that means cuz I'm just actually trying to do it in my own world right now with my three teenagers home from school. And we're all trying to figure out what this is gonna look like, and what should it look like, and what do we hold on to and what do we let go of.

Eva: Tina, this has been a great interview, thank you for your time.

Tina: You’re welcome.

Click through here to learn more about Women Hold the Key and Tina’s work…